[transcript] The Inpost app is the revolution that changed the way we shop EM #101

[transcript] The Inpost app is the revolution that changed the way we shop EM #101
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dr Krzysztof WojewodzicKwiecień, 2022

Krzysztof
Good morning good morning welcome to another episode of Escola Mobile. This week we have a guest whom I think we have been trying to invite to our podcast for a year. This is a very important guest who, in a way, revolutionized or at least revived the mobile market in two very important sectors: the first one is e-commerce, because a lot of parcels are sent through InPost applications, and the second one, i don't know how to this, is the courier services. So what is happening behind the scenes in the backend. There is also a lot of innovation and today we are going to talk about it as I have been waiting a long time for this episode. With me is Maciej Wójtowicz and Wojtek Kułaga. I would like you to start with the person who has been longer in InPost to tell us what he does.

Maciej
Yes, in that case it falls on me. For almost three years, I deal with digital marketing in InPost, that is those topics which oscillate around our target campaigns using various channels of reaching the user and among other things we promote our mobile app and its options which are available to the users.

Wojciech
In InPost I deal with the mobile application. I am the product owner, so here the whole responsibility rests on my shoulders, for how the application looks and how it works. I have overall worked here a little less than Maciek, so I think that from the side of the application I will be able to say a lot about how it looks like with us.

Krzysztof
Many things have changed over these three years. The introduction is probably that many people in Poland may remember that moment when some plaques were attached to letters, some different combinations, let's call them basically, combinations to break the monopoly of the Post Office. But I do not want to talk about InPost as the whole history of the company, I want to talk about this solution of the parcel lockers. Where exactly did this idea come from? Can you tell us what needs it meets? Maybe we should start with Maciek, who has been with the company for a longer time.

Maciej
Of course when I was coming to those parcel machines just before the meeting with Wojtek. We summed up there were about four thousand, so really in less than three years from four thousand to now 15 thousand. This development can be seen to have taken place very quickly. I think that the most important thing about the parcel lockers is that it solves this problem where not everyone is able to be always at home and wait for the courier. So it's a kind of a solution to this basic problem where we can decide when to pick up the parcel. So there's more power so to speak in our hands and we can then get the package when it suits us. I think it was one of the main reasons why parcel machines have become so popular in Poland and why so many people actually use them on a daily basis. It's probably hard to find someone who hasn't ordered a parcel which was delivered to them to a parcel machine at least once. So I think that from my perspective, if I were to evaluate it and even look at it from the perspective of how I use our own services, it's just this possibility of choice. I can't come up and can't pick it up right now, I can always wait a while, or on the occasion when I'm out of the house and on my way I can pop by for the package. So that's how I would evaluate it.

Krzysztof
I think it was especially important when we all went to work in our offices and it was hard for couriers to go between 5 and 9 pm, because it was inconvenient for them. Besides, that's when we could also be at dinner. But it seems to me that there is one more advantage, hidden but very important from the perspective of the company, which is the laws of scaling. If a courier comes to every single house or apartment, it costs much more than these couriers I see from InPost that quickly place them in the parcel machines, there are probably some stickers which help them a lot or they have their own application. We'll probably talk about that soon, but if you compare the speed of placing as many as 100 parcels in standard parcel machines and delivering one hundred parcels, I'm shooting that it may take the courier the whole day and probably with parcel machines the courier will sidestep a dozen or even more. Of course, I've read these figures somewhere, but it's been many years ago, that it's just a few hundred packages maximum a courier is able to carry, while yours is many times more - it was some kind of law of scale like 6 or 7 times.

Wojciech
Yes, I know that's right, but I will refer a little to history, because in fact our first parcel machines were built in 2009. InPost, as you mentioned breaking the Polish Post's monopoly, was established in 2006, so three years after that the first parcel machines appeared on the market. It's worth emphasizing that our chairman often mentioned in interviews that nobody believed in his vision and idea, in fact it can be even said that it shows that it will be a niche solution and will not be accepted. And here, from the historical point of view, the first parcel machines in larger numbers were placed abroad, not in Poland. It was only in Poland, somewhere around 2013-2014, when our new parcel machines appeared, that this direction of development was driven by the business, i.e. the business knew that there would be a need for some kind of scaling from the soft side and from the IT side. Also here appropriate steps were taken. The architecture has been prepared in such a way that will allow for scaling large amounts

So InPost started to operate on a slightly larger scale. However, the beginnings were such that no one believed in this solution, they were simply knocking on their heads.

Krzysztof
And now I see that you have a lot of followers. I mean I'm very curious how it turned out. In my district there is Ali Express, DHL, a lot of those parcel machines were created. The whole time it is said that the Polish Post Office, I myself have not seen in my area. Orlen boasted about their parcel machines. I guess that the scaling laws applie here, which means that I need to have parcel machines very close to me, so in my opinion InPost is set up for success. For the reason that if everyone requires a different system, some big player would have to come in with an impetus to break this quasi-monopoly, but the dominant position of InPost. I'm more puzzled whether in some way these other players aren't based on your systems or are inspired by you in some way, as it turns out that many electric car manufacturers use Tesla batteries. Is it so that someone approaches you, some other company comes along and says ‘can you sell us some of your engine components?’

Wojciech
At least I don't remember anyone approaching us with such a direct question.
However, when it comes to imitation, it seems to me yes, I won't say here which company. 
But when you follow their development, e.g. the application, you can see a lot of similarities, maybe they also imitate our solutions, which of course makes you happy, because it only shows that we have done a good job, that we are an inspiration for other companies. As for other companies imitating us, as much as possible, here the consumers and, above all, showed the whole e-commerce that  that the parcel machines are something worth going for, which is really used, which is very popular. So it's hard to be surprised that someone is just trying to imitate the big players because in fact in every area of business it's like that.

Maciej
I would also like to add from my side that the potential of parcel machines in general this device - is not yet very big on the Polish market, so we set up a lot of new parcel machines every week and the plans are still such that there is a great potential for the creation of new machines. This is something that for sure everyone already at some point has noticed in smaller towns where we are also much more available and visible to the end-user where so far the issue of courier access might not be so easy. So I also mentioned that there is still a lot of potential, especially in those places that so far could not taste what parcel machines are and what improvements they bring when it comes to ordering products via the Internet.

Krzysztof
I am convinced that this will be the success factor. People want to have parcel machines very close to them. It seems to me that it defines this service very well, that it must be very accessible and easy to use. And it seems to me that it is well reflected in the application that is being created and I think that we can collide with this. What were the next stages? I don't want to talk about what is now yet, but rather about key milestones. At the beginning it must have been serviced through the web, at least from the side of sending the package etc. 

Whereas there were a couple of these key milestones that were very important that made this app so accessible and if you could collectively guide me and the listeners was from the beginning of the idea? Okay, so there should be an app and you have to make it. Then as what were the most important milestones that will made this application become so widespread. I assume that you are already well over a million downloads, I have not checked the latest data but I remember from one of the Mobile Trends.

Maciej
Roughly about 7 million users at this point, so you can actually say that basically one of the largest applications in Poland. For sure I think it's in the Top 10 or even higher, so yes.

Krzysztof
From the beginning what were the key milestone from the idea.

Maciej
We actually appeared in InPost just those three years ago, in fact at that time there was already the first version of the mobile application, so to speak. But it's hard to compare with what we have now and indeed in early 2015 we launched with the current shape of the mobile application.
Previously, mainly when it came to these interactions and checking the status of shipments, it is known that our website where you can check the status of a package, SMS that came with a notification.
We wanted to change something, we wanted to take advantage of the fact that more and more people are already using mobile devices in a very natural way and are able to use mobile applications. We also knew that this was the direction where we had to develop the business as such in terms of how we were going to contact the client and what the interface would look like through which the client could interact with our services. So of course this was the motivation, well everything started, let's say in less than 3 years ago when we launched it in its current form, of course without all these options because they were made in time, which we will talk about exactly when we launched it, so at one hundred percent.

Krzysztof
That mobile will be, let's call it, the main channel of communication with the user, I think that's exactly what it is.

Wojciech
Exactly that first application which Maciek mentioned is actually 2015. It was a test to get into mobile, it was an application that was made and released only for Android. If I remember correctly, it was probably one or two versions, and for those four years there were actually a staggering number of tens of thousands of downloads. The app was actually a bit early for its times.
At that time in Poland the mobile market was a very niche market and hardly anyone thought seriously about it, rather it was a question of web users. For this reason I assume that this idea was abandoned, and after what Maciek said, that is year 2019 - a completely different approach. Here I could also slightly refer to the launch of this new parcel machines, which had its architecture created so that it could easily scale later. Here also when it comes to applications, such approach from the backend side was assumed that it is something that will not be done in 2019 and later will not be developed but rather there was already implemented a long-term strategy which will be the main tool and the main interface for our users. So that architecture was also prepared from the frontend side also such approach was taken due to also the application being written as a native app. Here without any concessions and compromises but how best to adapt this application to the capabilities of the system. To guarantee the best quality for our users.

Krzysztof
So you can say this year 2019 is like this: OK we're going into mobile. For me there were a couple of such breakthrough stages of that application. Certainly one of those very important ones was the ability to open parcel machines remotely with the app. It's a bit of magic, if you manage something completely remotely, it means it has to be first of all secure so you'd have to authenticate that it's this user, that IP, that no one can break in. So it definitely has to be very well secured with some kind of firewall in the middle, good encryption. It has to be reliable and certain that I am in a given location. So we know we have to have a tracker. This is how I imagine it from the technical side, of course, but it is not, as I know IT, an easy thing which you have introduced. And the second very special moment for me was the introduction of the possibility of sending packages without printing these labels, because it leads many people to some small frustrations, because it has to be stuck, not everyone has a printer, not everyone has glue, not everyone knows how to do this and then there is something else and the label gets wet - for me personally they were as a user, but I think that this also had a huge impact on your conversion.
The third thing is the multi locker as the name suggests. You had a problem during the pandemic of the overabundance of these packages, you will surely say more about that, so it is possible to get multiple packages. If I ordered three and they fit then I don't have to take up three lockers. So I would like you to at least talk about those three biggest breakthroughs from my perspective but maybe add some others stories.
Maybe we should start with the opening of this remote parcel machine. Where the idea came from and how long something like this took in terms of work. It's not often talked about that it's not just an app, but you'll have to figure it out in the backend, how to make that parcel machine know.

Wojciech
So maybe I will tell, when it comes to remote opening. Overall these topics that you mentioned, here a very nice term our president uses that these are the so-called game changers. I agree with this, because in fact adding these functions to the application, which Maciek will probably mention, showed that it was very well received by users, which is shown by the charts of downloads, charts of interest in the application. Besides, here I also sound a little immodest, but the awards we received for these features show that it was a good step. And where the remote parcel machines came from, in fact the idea was conceived at some meeting of the directors or the board. A vision was thrown that listen there is this nice idea that we have big queues, maybe we could do a remote opening. In fact that year 2019, when it comes to mobile we launched the application, while the next step was let's do something super, because we InPost have always been perceived as an innovative company. We have always tried to be one step ahead of everyone else so let's do something that will have a wow effect. Because, as you mentioned, if we give someone the possibility of remote controlling something
It's a lot of fun, in fact it's like giving a little boy or even a bigger boy a remote-controlled excavator it's a huge fun, so here, by analogy, we can say that magic happens here too.
How long did it take just to create, in fact working out the whole mechanism, taking care of it from the backend side, frontend side, that is to say, in fact, provide security to ensure proper optimization of the quality of the solution from the technical side. And of course from the front side to provide this appropriate UX so that in fact every user whether it be a 16 or an 18 year old or it will be for example a person who is over 60 years or even older who is not necessarily so familiar with the new technology could safely and quite simply handle the service of the parcel locker. From the inception of the idea to the release on the market  lasted I think about six months, five months more or less it took to prepare the entire solution. As I mentioned we had to do our best not to release something that would simply discourage our users.

Krzysztof
Absolutely, plus that security and so that someone won't just open your package. Surely colleagues from Niebezpiecznik.pl also have their own ideas. Maciek.

Maciej
Just to add to what Wojtek said about these ideas here, you can say that the automations for what new options will come to the application, I will add that very often it is so that we already have something planned, but also in the background we get a lot of signals from our users what improvements they would like to add to the application and what to improve. And it is also so that simple things fall directly as comments on stores in the AppStore, Google Play. What I could advise others when it comes to applications is to carefully read these comments because there was a lot of cool inspiration that we really get from users and this also in a way confirms our plans.

Krzysztof
So you have a lot of these comments and you actually read them to see what is happening there?

Maciej
Exactly, we read all the opinions in the sense of ratings, because the ratings can be given without opinions. At this point we have about a million in total from two stores which is quite a lot. We read the comments. You can check we respond especially we try to solve any problems because let's not hide that there is always some kind. Any application can generate various kinds of problems for the user.
So what we are able to solve directly on the store is to advise or redirect to a direct contact, we try to solve it either with the customer or with our IT.
We find a way to solve the problem, maybe something needs to be improved in the next update so we read it and I encourage to do it also to quickly interact with users. From a marketing perspective when it comes to the promotion of the application itself it is extremely important to also do it because it affects the evaluation. We noticed that a lot of users who managed to solve the problem or we hinted how to do something, later changed the rating to a higher level, so this is very nice. I think that when it comes to the assessment of our application itself, apart from how we evaluate it that we like it and the industry awards that we collect, for us the most important thing is the satisfaction of the customer and this can be seen from the ratings in stores. So you can see what the average rating is there with the number of reviews, which is almost a million, when the average is basically 5.0 then I think that from this point of view we can be satisfied, but yes I say we read, and always if we see something that is reported and we are able to improve it, we do not pass it over indifferently.

Krzysztof
On a certain scale mistakes always happen.
The package will get wet or somewhere this or I can't open my phone because for example my phone is not working properly. It is great that you are still able to interact and make sure that the user really is happy. Let's talk about this second Game challenger as  as we are already here. We had this increase at the beginning of the pandemic. We talked off the air that this March to June as the pandemic broke out it was just a build up that normally expresses itself right now at this point in the December holiday. Throughout the craze everyone wants to buy something for themselves for family for friends. So this is something that couriers and e-commerce companies are preparing for. On the other hand, it was hard to prepare for the pandemic. Maciek said you still had less than half of those parcel lockers that are now a lot of. I remember from my district that it looked like this courier often just had to stand and he was just handing out packages from the car and so it's a good thing that it kind of worked that in every situation there was some solution. And one idea that came up was let's look for package locker locations. But it won't be done overnight and the other thing is optimization. One of them was to put several packages in one box. It seems simple on the surface, but like this opening takes some work though, so again Wojtek what does it look like from the time invested. Where did the idea came from.

Wojciech
In terms of this idea is sure enough, the idea is floating around in the comments too. It even shows in the comments on the stores under the app whether it's AppStore, Google Play, or App Gallery. People, besides that they praise the app, it is is also there for them as a communication channel to say that they don't like something. However, there were many comments that well not a lot but there were quite a few comments where people were pointing out but also posting listen, if I'm going to pick up 3 packages, why not put them in one box. The idea on the other hand also originated in our operations department. This was one such improvement of optimization. Whereas, from the idea to the launch of the multi lockers was a very long time because we had to analyze everything very carefully. Here it was actually one of the organization's largest projects. Which was you could say brought back to life when the pandemic started because there were some smaller topics. So this project was somewhere on the side. Whereas when the pandemic appeared and actually as you mentioned here this period for which we prepare all year long suddenly appeared in April where there was really a dress rehearsal of our infrastructure of our operations in basically the whole company. It sped up. Here there was a lot of emphasis placed on getting this implemented as soon as possible. And actually the appearance of the multi locker, first of all, it was a great convenience for users because here a lot of people have been asking to put several packages into one locker. It was a great convenience and secondly it allowed us to deliver even more packages at the same time actually. So it was such a big game changer -  from one side it is easier for us and on the other easier for the customer or a typical situation of win-win. Something that showed once again that InPost is an innovative company.

Krzysztof
We have a lot of people on Linkedin watching us and I have a few questions, but I still want to ask about my own question, that is about the possibility of printing without labels. Because it is something that for me no other company does, I do not know any courier company that allows you to send something without labels. I always wonder if it really makes sense to print a label manually, which is still common at post offices. Who is it after that reads it because I have quite a heavy dysgraphia and very rarely use a pen. On the computer I write very legibly while with a pen worse and I get a confirmation that these packages actually arrive so someone must have some super skill or this OCR who works with handwritten labels is very effective. But still it is a great saving of paper, time and glue that later the package will not get wet and the label will not get wet. Also a big thing especially if someone sends a lot of mail as they have wholesale label printing I guess that ecommerce it might just be for them. How to do something like that?

Maciej
So maybe from this more marketing point of view it was also something that came up very often for those reasons you mentioned where a mundane thing someone may not have a printer and there's already one problem concerning how to send a parcel, because the label has to be printed. Of course it's a general test for the parcel service itself, because we've introduced such a service before, but it's a web service where you really need to do it in a simple way. These are quick sendings, in a simple way you can click where you want to send the parcel and to whom, so it's a very simple process. It's just that it requires printing labels and it's done on a web browser. So before the option of sending without labels appeared in the mobile application, we had this option on the web for a long time. And we saw very high interest from users and the fact that there are more and more parcels and more people need to send parcels, so we can say that it was a general test and it confirms that it is worth improving the whole process and actually move this option to the application, where the process without the label is very simple and later the process of sending shipments in parcel machines is also very simple with the mobile application. From our perspective we have already seen that it will certainly be a nice thing for the users and in addition if we can improve it by not having to print labels then it is all the more worth implementing something like this in the mobile application.

Krzysztof
Wojtek from the perspective of the product owner was it a tough challenge just to implement and did it take more weeks or months to make this project happen. 

Wojciech
You know it was generally a challenge. Let's not hide the fact that it was a small thing, because it was one of the biggest things because apart from the fact that we had to allow the user to create such a package we also had to allow him to pay for it. Here I would also like to point out that when we started talking about this new functionality, it was just as Maciek said: we saw great potential in sending packages to retail customers, i.e. customers who send occasionally on quick sending. It showed us that there is a lot of potential in this and here, following the mobile strategy I mentioned at the beginning, we concluded that the application will be a great place. The next step is to expand this possibility of sending. In addition, we also took into account the fact that there is a big problem with printing it is enough to see on some group of residences to see how many people ask if someone could print him one card, most often it is the label of the sender. And we came up with this idea to do a quick sending in the application.
But the first thing that caught our eye so we take a mobile device we input all the data there and now what. What am I going to do with this. Where do I print it and then we would smile very nicely to our operations department asking if we can handle the label-less shipping process on a larger scale.
As you can see, the answer was positive. From the technical point of view it took us a while, because it was maybe not half a year, but a few nice months, too, because we also had to test the process in terms of how it works on the operational side. Whereas the joy that, on the one hand, users really loved this function. On the other hand we opened another area for sending shipments and we showed the market that it is possible. We have shown once again that there is no need to be afraid, that innovation is important and it is worth having the courage to go one step ahead of everyone else. I think it was a bigger joy than the remote opening after launching the label-less sending.

Krzysztof
Listen gentlemen as I listen to you my heart grows and I think this is such a success story of innovation. I really understand that your IT department seems to have either difficulty saying no or great courage to say yes. Because I also run a large IT department and I know how easy it is to hear that it's impossible, you have to convince them that if we approached it from a different angle and there appeared such a light it might be possible, so then we look for solutions together. However, our listeners who are watching us live are asking if you would tell us what didn't work, so that we don't have the illusion that everything was extra and in record time. Are there any difficulties along the way that you had but overcame or still face in developing these applications where the users might want to and you want to, but it is just still a process that needs some time.

Wojciech
I must admit that there were no such spectacular failures, I think. However, with such things some minor problems of course we had. The users may not even feel or a very small group as I remember one of the biggest in the Top 2 was the publication of the version with the remote opening, it was version 2.0 which everyone waited for. We released the application to the App Store. And at that moment I saw that it was already released, updated it, launched it, super. Emotions were but also stress. It worked. At that moment two people came to me and said listen but for us the application is not working. What turned out, Apple which seems like a reliable company has in its X code a bug. In fact after building this app it only runs on the newest iOS. We actually had a couple of hours to build a new version, sending it to Apple, and convince them to do a fast review for us. It worked, because in fact the app with this bug appeared probably around 12:00-13:00, at 20 o'clock there was already a new version. But I consider it a blunder because unfortunately our CEO managed to update this app and it didn't update iOS, so we made a spectacularly bad start of this adventure.

Krzysztof
OK, but if it was 7 hours, it's also a good way to react quickly, just like we had here too at Escola Mobile, mBank, when we had those ą and ę tests  we were worried about those problems. It is extremely important as a big company like InPost is already considered to be able to react to any objections raised in an open way. Ok. We made a mistake. Something did not work out, we are acting on it, and so on. I wonder if Maciek recalled something from his memory yet.

Maciej
I, of course, release an application that works on Android or iOS and we are dependent on these stores. I also remember such a situation where we also had a version ready for release. I do not remember Wojtek what exactly it was supposed to be but we also waited a very long time for the review and transition of that version to Google Play. So it's also something that, from our perspective, we know that it's ready, we want to release it quickly to the users, but for various reasons there we didn't know exactly why.
Because, you know, we contacted the support. We managed to solve it in the end but we waited quite a long time before this application passed so it also shows that although we would be always ready and willing to introduce something sometimes external factors may prevent us from doing so, so it is also worth taking into account when we actually use external providers. I'll talk a little bit more about it generally from a marketing perspective.

Krzysztof
Tell us why this particular app is important because I have another question just related to this. 

Maciej
Of course, there's no denying that for us applications, as we mentioned, are one of the main channels of contact with users, so now this base of seven million users to whom we can reach with our services and our products and inform about what's new with us is invaluable. This is also important in connection with all the changes that are taking place on the market of Internet advertising. Probably most people have already heard about the fact that some browsers are already blocking cookies. Chrome will also start to do this. A little bit of postponement of this blocking but it is inevitable. In any case, it's going to be more and more difficult to carry out such actions directed with this message to the right people. So it is mega important to collect first party data about users, so to have contact with them. Of course getting all marketing consents. Besides that direct contact is also have such a channel which we can use and we decide whether only to use or show some message or not. Well, because again if you're dependent on external channels like Facebook profile, YouTube, channel it's often the case that unfortunately for some different reasons we can be blocked there.
Also a lot of people heard about these Youtube problems where various youtubers had a blocked channel. It happened to us too. We also did not know why, only after a few days we were able to unblock it, so basing our communication capabilities only on such external channels over which we do not have full control is also a mistake looking at it in the long run. And it is known that the application is our thing. We are able to develop on our own and this is the medium through which we can contact our users, so from the perspective, as you know, there already are such topics as budget savings and other campaigns, because if we can reach our users through our own channels, then, investing additional funds in advertising does not have to be so problematic when it comes to budgets.

Krzysztof
Maciek, and that is what I wanted to ask you about, because it has been a year and a half, maybe a year. I do not know whether for all or only for those who have downloaded the application are no longer sent SMS with information that the package was sent, pick it up, time is running out.
Once there were such SMS, now they are no longer sent. And to tell you the truth I was wondering for a long time because I am a person who cares very much about his digital well-being does not have any application that would have push notifications enabled.
And yet the InPost application forced me to do it, in a sense that I didn't know that someone had sent me a package somewhere and it flew away before I realized it, and I see that there is a kind of a push on push when it comes to InPost. And is it related to the fact that people should turn on this push notificaiton and thanks to this you should have contact with them or is it related to the fact that SMS costs a penny, half a penny, quarter of a penny in your scale, that is in the scale of millions of millions of sent parcels it is just a budget issue, as it were. How is it?

Maciej
I can probably start to add this one from myself. How it looks from my perspective. I would also start with another thing which is now very important and also affects many companies, namely phishing, because everyone has probably come across this. And very often, unfortunately, schemes are used to try to trick us by means of some extra charges for parcels which we have to pay to get our parcel. We don't send such things and it's also in a way thanks to the application the user is aware that they receive these messages from the application so there is less probability that someone will receive from us and will try to defraud some of our data. So it is certainly a matter of security which I think now for everyone is of high importance. Certainly in the context of the notifications themselves it is also a matter of the fact that if someone has a mobile application we don't want to burden that user with a million different notifications, so these limitations with mobile push notifications which are sent in connection with the change of the status of a parcel are sufficient at this point.
We can also say that these push messages are very often treated in such a way that users simply read them and if something comes to our phone, we can see and pick up very quickly like a text message where the readiness and willingness to read the message is quite high. From the user's perspective it is not the accumulation of such a large number of contacts at one time where the first one is sufficient.

Wojciech
In fact I confirm what Maciek said, mainly here it is about users' safety. However, probably referring to your question I would lie saying that we did not save on this because in fact there is some savings for the company. However, here the reason for the change was the safety of users, because even though a large part of the recipients have already switched to the application, these actions still occur in various forms, be it for collections such as pay extra by clicking on the link or when sending, on OLX  very often people impersonate saying that we have e.g. sending on delivery, an InPost page appears according to them, which in fact is not in any way similar to our pages, but it's our logo where card details or account details are needed to input, I do not remember exactly. And then there it was approved probably and thanks to this money will go to the account. In each case very often it appears, I also know from my friends have already received a dozen times such screenshots with the question of whether it's really our site. So despite these our promotional actions or with some partners where we promote security still these ideas of fraudsters exist and even to the extent that practically almost flawlessly impersonate us or the banks.
Recently I think one of the services showed a page of mBank and in fact in the link there was probably one letter with a dot very hardly visible so it was almost a perfect trick. So here, from our perspective, security of our users from the beginning was also one of the priorities.

Maciej
Regarding these phishing attacks, I will add that it is worth, first of all, if there are some shopping transactions, it should always be done within the framework of the negative functions of a given service, so we do not go somewhere on Whatsapp and talk about how to pay for a shipment with someone or how to order a courier, because it is already suspicious. So we should always pay attention to it. Plus all such things can be reported to us through contact forms or hotline. We also check this and we are also able to suggest verification so in future if someone has doubts it is always worth writing to us with a question. Here vigilance is the most important because unfortunately not only us as a courier company and other courier companies but also other companies that operate or banks very often are subject to such attacks.

Krzysztof
Exactly, we were just talking a lot about this security and actually unfortunately people are buying with their eyes literally. So if they don't have properly sensitive eyes and especially if it's some kind of mobile channel they don't know that they shouldn't leave a particular ecosystem. Not everyone is an IT expert they can easily get confused. You justify it well the issue of push on push. Listen to one more thing I wanted to consult, is with the characteristics of well-designed logo companies in some identification that they are quite durable and at the same time characteristic. As for me these yellow eyes, this yellow box is definitely something unique. I don't know who came up with it. maybe a UX designer but I think it should really be rewarded. Because the apple of Apple has been around for years, maybe got a few tweaks, the logo overall hasn't changed but it has some distinctive aspects that we know immediately that this is it. And in my opinion this identity that this yellow one has been developed really is terribly recognizable and at the same time it's vivid I mean the parcels wish have a nice day. All these notifications are also not something other companies do, these messages are terribly dry, change the delivery date, some terribly long numbers, it's unpleasant to read them. Meanwhile, InPost has developed some very nice communication I congratulate the marketing team.
And I would like to ask for a word of commentary, that is, whether it was intended from the beginning or it was just some kind of users' request somewhere. Or maybe it was your internal one. And what, by the way, would you advise other companies to create a kind of unambiguous communication with customers.

Maciej
Maybe we'll go back to the time before this so to speak the square face which now probably often meets you. Just map of ours, so you can say that such a trend appears in the messages. We used to have a package I don't know if you recognize at all such a character that also communicated in such a way just telling the user what's going on with their package, passed various messages because we wanted to refresh this character and kind of fit into the trends that are nowadays when it comes to how people communicate with each other, so with those emojis that are very common. Let's not hide the fact that our character is also very much a part of it and we can very easily create different variations of versions of our character, which is enough that we give him some attributes and a Santa hat, so now he is able to communicate Christmas and so on, or sometimes he also has different moods and here it can be easily presented in this way. So for sure this approach was to go a step further when it comes to how we want to have this character, which, so to speak, will be communicating with our users and how it will appear.
It was such a refreshment, and now it's really like you say, it's nicely accepted and it's such a universal form of communication which also brings closer those messages which are often just information about the status of a package. Here we don't need something or we won't do something by force to make it even less pleasant and this character that we get can make such an impression and very often it is also present in our creations, whether on the website or in advertisements or in the mobile application. So this is the genesis and so I think it's worth choosing such elements which later on you are also able to adjust them to the context in which they appear. What can he say so that it is fairly universal I would say.

Krzysztof
I wanted to ask each of you about the deal breaker, game changer that there is another big thing and here I have two questions that is such next big thing, this game changer on which you may now be working. Maybe you are able to reveal a little bit of the secret but also you have quite a wide view I guess you work and in marketing and you Wojtek as a product owner where you do research into what the competition is doing in the world. To Poland recently entered Amazon. What do you see as a trend in general in e-commerce, in shipping? What can be expected in the coming years, say in the perspective of two - three years? Those two things I wanted to ask. I don't know if you can reveal anything about what will be the next game changer and if not then in general what to watch for.

Wojciech
Certainly something related to packaged which is going to be the next thing that comes up somewhere. It seems to me that it will be a sort of game changer as it is now I can't say more. And what the future of e-commerce and logistics in general. We'll see, I very much hope that in a few years or so drone deliveries or any other form of autonomy will come to fruition. It remains to be seen in which direction this development will go. Certainly, looking from experience and from the perspective of InPost, it seems to me that we can be among the first to take this innovative step. For the reason that, as everyone can probably see, we are rather not afraid of introducing any innovations. If somewhere novelties appear it is rather in our case, rather here we put on these innovations and not on things that are currently. So I think that if something appears it's worth monitoring InPost and it will probably be first in our case.

Maciej
When it comes to such trends in general I think it's worth paying attention to something that we also often come across in publications of various brands, namely these topics related to ecology which for us are extremely important because we emphasize that parcel machines are this ecological form of delivery due to the fact that the courier who can deliver a greater number of packages to one parcel machine than to reach each customer individually, for example, what we have introduced quite recently, in fact two weeks ago, the possibility of returning electric devices.
If someone has some unnecessary phones or other equipment which is lying around the house and does not know what to do with it. And of course you should not just look for it in the garbage, you can report it through parcel machines. So what you can certainly expect when it comes to InPost is definitely new initiatives which are very much related to ecology and these will not be just initiatives but concrete actions. So I think that we will still show a lot of interesting ideas in this context.

Krzysztof
OK. What is the result of listening to customers and being a pioneer of innovation and how to talk on the boards and among directors. You need to look for solutions that the programmers will not say no to but will say it's possible and then implement them effectively. Very valuable lesson for me from today's long-awaited meeting with InPost. My guests were Wojtek Kułaga, the product owner of InPost application and Maciej Wójtowicz who is Marketing Manager of digital channel. Thank you for the meeting.

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